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ACLU and Larry Craig agree: bathroom time is private time

Posted 01.24.2008 by daphne
The American Civil Liberties Union has upped the ante on the Larry Craig affair by suggesting that people who have sex in closed restroom stalls can expect a certain level of privacy.

Larry Craig, as you know, has changed his mind following his October guilty plea after being accused of soliciting sex from an undercover police officer. Now it seems he finally has someone in his corner besides various internet bloggers (many of whom are from the gay and lesbian community, interestingly enough). Even though Craig, like many conservative politicians, has thumbed his nose at the ACLU, the group is arguing his side.

The ACLU's argument centers on the fact that the government admitted that Craig was charged with interference with privacy. When Craig pleaded guilty to this, he in fact pleaded guilty to crossing a border that should not be crossed in reasonable situations -- a border that someone should respect and expect to be respected by other members of society -- for the purpose of initiating sex in a public place.

In the eyes of the ACLU, this is a paradoxical stance held by the government. If a restroom stall is a private area, then what people intend to do in it is none of the law's business. After all, it's illegal for law enforcement to place video surveillance in public restroom stalls, isn't it?

Here's a portion of the twelve-page brief the ACLU filed earlier this month.

"Sex is a constitutionally protected liberty interest. Thus, the government may make sex a crime only where it has a constitutionally sufficient justification for doing so. The government does not have a constitutionally sufficient justification for making private sex a crime. It follows that an invitation to have private sex is constitutionally protected and may not be made a crime. This is so even where the proposition occurs in a public place, whether in a bar or in a restroom."

The ACLU is arguing that if Craig was arrested because his alleged proposition was a crime, then any sexual proposition would be also a crime, regardless of location.

The topic is being hotly debated many places on the net, especially pro- and anti-civil liberties forums and blogs. The question that keeps on surfacing: just what WAS his crime? But parents are up in arms about what they consider to be the ridiculous nature of the ACLU's stance on public sex, just as liberals were upset about Craig swimming in a sea of seeming homophobic intentions when he defended his own "stance" months before. Which means it's shaping up to be a much more interesting case that I expected it to be last fall.

As of yet, Craig has not resigned as promised, and has decided to finish his term as an Idaho senator.

Show some poop support, or make a poop retort.
Logjam (2452) -- 01.24.2008

And it is cases like these that make me proud to be a member of the ACLU. I joined up when Bush and his giddy congress passed that huge tax cut back in his first term and sent many of us checks in the mail. Mine, I think, was for $600. I could think of nothing better to do with it than send it all off to the ACLU -- to help guys like Larry Craig.

HowleyKook (94) -- 01.24.2008

I am sooo confused.

Larry Craig finds his way into a shitter looking for love… is arrested and charged with “interference with privacy”… The ACLU is trying to show him some love...He doesn't want it...

Shouldn't they be charged with the same?
_______
Happy Crappin'
www.homegrownmedia.com

Deja Poo (649) -- 01.24.2008

The problem with the ACLU's position is that they don't know whether they're coming or going. When you start out with "Sex is a constitutional...", your case is in serious trouble because it's not unreasonable to expect a reasonable person to know the difference between a good poop and a good screw. While a good shit may feel orgasmic, it is not an orgasm. Apparently, the ACLU doesn't understand this. Thus, their case fails the reasonable standard.
_______
Yo quiero Taco Bell.

Dave (11657) -- 01.25.2008

This article was mistakenly attributed to me. Daphne is the author. The mistake has been fixed. Sorry, Daph. (OK, maybe I just really wanted 7 more user points.)

daphne (3667) -- 01.25.2008

I bet you did. You rascallion.

You know, I'm actually looking forward to this case's outcome. Maybe nothing will happen that shakes the foundations. But, what if it's decided that the ACLU has a point about privacy? Will it really affect how public restroom stalls are seen from now on?

I'm not holding my breath, but you never know how a not guilty verdict would change bathroom stings and undercover operations.


_______
.....hugging bunnies since 1969
www.daphneszoo.com

HowleyKook (94) -- 01.25.2008

Hey Daphne,
there's a really nice public crapper close to my place, what are you doin after the trial?


_______
Happy Crappin'
www.homegrownmedia.com

daphne (3667) -- 01.26.2008

You tell me, sugar tits. Wink wink.


_______
.....hugging bunnies since 1969
www.daphneszoo.com

daphne (3667) -- 01.26.2008

No. Wait. I meant "tap tap".

Look for the stylish hippy jesus sandals and sparkly lavender painted toe nails.

Uh oh.........

He sat in the stall, slick with anticipation. Under his arm were 2 packs of "Macho Man" condoms, a case of Betty Crocker Chocolate icing, and a truss attached to the top of the stall partitions with 3 inch screws.

The ground quivered. The surface of the Wild Irish Rose he'd put on ice for her rippled.

She was coming.

As she entered the stall next to his, the bolts in the wall screamed in protest. He readied himself for some sort of explosion, but it never came.

"Click click"

Toenails.

Fungus-ee tonails.

Clicking on the floor below.

He glanced down and saw the worst case of Athlete's feet he'd ever been subject to. The surface of the moon was smoother. His girl was here!

"Miss Daphne?"

"Mmmgbblfffmmmph."

"I see you got the icing."

"If I have to tap my foot on your side of the stall again, I'm going to bend you in half."

At this point, Howleykook silently cried and prayed for the local police.

I like beer.


_______
.....hugging bunnies since 1969
www.daphneszoo.com

The Thunderous ... (710) -- 01.26.2008

Damn Daph thats kinky! Seriously though what goes on in a bathroom should stay in that bathroom. Icing or not, I think that when behavior is anything other than a good venemous piss or a nice huge dump and OTHERS KNOW its anything but then its time to take that business to a more private room or even bathroom. I hear in some places they now have handicapped crappers that are completely isolated. I know that creates a whole other set of issues but then if they are concerned about that then they need to get a room or a more private crapper. Case closed.
_______
The Thunderous Crapper 63 Enjoying home toilet advantage since 2004!

prarie doggin (2283) -- 01.26.2008

MY GOD, what's this world coming to? Why don't they just put a bed in the handicap stall, mirrors on the ceiling, and cheap porn music piped in.

HowleyKook (94) -- 01.26.2008

Oh Daphne,

You make me blush and my sphincter pucker up every time you go into detail. When you get bored with abusing Mr. Daphne… Oh shit my wife is coming… TTYL

_______
Happy Crappin'
www.homegrownmedia.com

daphne (3667) -- 01.27.2008

I will never get bored with abusing Mr. daphne. But that doesn't mean I can't squeeze you in sometime. How do Tuesdays work?

As to the privacy issue, there are so many takes on it from so many different lifestyles. The one that struck me was what I read on a gay/lesbian forum (as a link for research for this newswire) posted from a guy who had just come out of the closet after 20 years of hiding it in a heterosexual marriage. He said that these meeting places, these restrooms, motels, bars across the nation, make up an entire underground of safe havens for men who haven't come to terms with their sexuality. These places represent the only outlet many of these men have. I don't judge this because I can't. Being lucky enough to have social acceptance for my lifestyle leaves me out of the loop here as to understanding how these moments might connect another person to their sanity, keep them going.

However, no one wants to take their 5 year old into a public restroom if there are 2 men in the next stall going at it. It's a real hot button topic.


_______
.....hugging bunnies since 1969
www.daphneszoo.com

The Big Wiper (2245) -- 01.27.2008

The entire issue speaks more to cultural attitudes towards certain types of human sexuality than it does toward the behavior of some people who feel trapped by those attitudes.

If there were not an entire cottage industry of hatred and prejudice against same-sex orientation fueled mostly by organized Christianity, no one would go to the lengths they go to to pretend to be something they're not. Which is officially-approved, opposite sex oriented within the bounds of marriage only.

There is a submerged iceberg out there of people playing roles in order to try and fit into what their churches and families expect of them. It's very unhealthy and why I part company with most all organized religion.

What goes on in stalls because of all of this is the least of it. If these churches would stop beating people over the head with selected passages in the Bible made up by tribes dead for thousands of years, some of these behaviors would start to disappear.

But I have no illusions. That will take generations of education and understanding on the subject of the human sexuality spectrum. Not to mention changes in the structure of powerful and wealthy churches. And that's not going to happen any time soon.

Pulling My Pants Down For Peace, Plop and Posterity!

Great comment! +1 point
prarie doggin (2283) -- 01.27.2008

I would like to insert my opinion. Like it or not, it is how I feel. First off I am a law and order person. Without laws, we would rapidly decend into a feudal, Afghan type society. Public restrooms are exactly what the name implies, PUBLIC. They are put there for the convenience of the public, for use as designed, and the area behind the stall door is just as much the public's property as the rest of the room. I have seen many a private bathroom closed to the public because of abuse, as well as public ones. As a matter of fact New Jersey has half the hiway rest stops it used to have, and many of these are closed at night.
I have absolutely no problems with someones sexual orientation, or religion. As a matter of fact, I dont have a problem with someone trying to get a date in a public restroom, as long as the follow up is taken to a home or hotel. The vast majority of the public wants clean rest rooms so they can do their business with a bit of decency, and I think a person making a mess or defacing property is more guilty of abuse than someone tapping on your stall. After all, if you're not interested, a polite "fuck off" will solve the problem. I don't align myself with Republicans or Democrats, Catholics or Protestants, gay or straight on this issue. I prefer to align myself with the party of common sense.

Bilgepump (1731) -- 01.27.2008

Wow, bet your pretty lonely at the conventions.

Nice post, PD.

daphne (3667) -- 01.28.2008

I liked The Big Wiper's post, too.


_______
.....hugging bunnies since 1969
www.daphneszoo.com

Logjam (2452) -- 01.28.2008

daphne. I think Bilge was simply telling pd that he liked what he'd written above -- not commenting about his manhood. Nevertheless, I'm sure many PRers will find what you've so generously shared of interest.

prarie doggin (2283) -- 01.28.2008

Question my manhood?? I'll scratch your eyes out.

The Big Wiper (2245) -- 01.28.2008

Cat fight in aisle two!!!
Pulling My Pants Down For Peace, Plop and Posterity!

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